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ortho158
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 15:16
I started a discussion with Gus Koelman in his blog, and here is our exchange of comments:
ortho158:I liked your first posts (those before Nepal), but I frankly think that 142 pics (as of today) on the Tibet problem is way too much.
Gus: Frankly Ortho, I don’t force you to take a look at my photos. There is plenty of photography besides mine to look at on Woophy. I am a journalist, this is my story and I want to tell it. I think that this is especially important since the big networks left.
ortho158:Hi Guus. First of all, I did not know you are a journalist, and I really did not want ot offend you. It's just that you started a great blog about India, and I expected it would continue in the same vein, and not as a pamphlet against China (although I agree that China's attitude should be condemnded). alain
Gus: Hello Alain, could you explain to me why you think my blog became a “pamphlet” against China? If anything, I would like to show the way the Nepalese police treat peaceful Tibetan protestors… Please reply, I am interested and would like to start a discussion.
OK, I am certainly guilty of claiming it is a pamphlet against China. But what I really mean, is that I believe that Woophy is not a forum for the defense or condemnation of ideologies. I am not against pictures with a political flavour; but I also think that it is enough to post a couple of them, and not hundreds. Next time, we will get pics of Middle-East antagonists showing how they are treated by the other; Geert Wilders will publish his Fitna movie on Woophy, ....
I am simply asking that we show some reserve when presenting political matters.
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zerega
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 16:03 - Edited by: zerega
I won't dip into Chinese and Tibetan politics here but appreciate this blog's role as a laboratory and discussion piece for this future woophy feature (travel, blog, map). It tests the possibilities and limits of the blog and the discussion of Alains and Guus is a good start.
I think a few more commentaries and feedback would help Guus and all future woophy travel bloggers to learn more about how readers appreciate these stories. Especially the impact the author's and the images' emotions bang on the casual reader far away ... what and how many strong images to select from the whole batch ... did the blog stray off too far from a travel blog ... has Guus gone too far in siding on the protester's side, etc ...
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zerega
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 16:17
I'll start on the image selection issue. A quick glance through the whole batch revealed some very strong photos which might be better appreciated if not buried in a whole set of 100+ images, e.g.:
  
  
There are many more interesting, but for the me, the non-attached viewer far away, these have the most impact.
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ortho158
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 16:24 - Edited by: ortho158
Zerega is absolutely right: more comments from the readers would really help. When I look at the comments and views of the Specials Zerega and I wrote last month, there is an appaling small number of comments (5 for >300 views for the Silk Road, and 6 for >400 views for Thailand), so that we really do not know what Woophians think of them.
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Martin de Rijk
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 17:02
My two cents. Gus uses the importance of the issue as a motivation for his blog. Although I agree with him, as ortho does, on the fact the Chinese repression is to be condemmed, I don't think this is the right place. Once started, you can't reject other blogs with a political content, and this, as we have seen in western Europe can have some serious implications. (remember the cartoon issue and the recent Fitna movie). This is a world wide community, and we like to share our impressions of the world in a non political , non offending way, at least this is the way I see it. The blogs of zerega and ortho are a fine example of what I mean. If you feel the need to contribute to a political discussion or subject there are numerous ways to do so.
I too didn't know Gus was a journalist, he introduced his blog by telling about his trip and I got the impression it would become a very interesting illustrated report of his journey.
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fotogravenswaay
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 17:24
To give a glimp of the situation in Tibet is nothing more than logical in my opinion, but in dutch we have saying: overal waar TE voor staat is niet goed........Every sentence/word witch starts with TOO isn't right ( I hope my translation is correct in english ) and I think it is okay to show some pictures of the situation in Tibet, it is a part of our world!!......but lets not get an overkill........for real political discussions there are enough other message boards.
ruud
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Dieuwertje
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 17:44
I agree with all my heart with the argument's of Ortho, Martin and Ruud.
Joris made the choise to abadone politics dicussions out of Woophy and that is very wise of him.
As such discussions started on Woophy, it will give a lot of trubbles too.
So let we go on to show all things of the world, without politics please.
Dieuwertje
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pansa
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 18:02 - Edited by: pansa
Good point Ortho. I fully agree with you, Martin and Ruud. (Some) people tend to exaggerate their political correctness. Let's keep this a photo site.
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joris
Moderator
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 18:24
As a supporter of Guus and his blog it is difficult for me to say something objective about this discussion.
1. Yes we very much like Guus’ stories about what he encounters on his travels, after all Woophy is about showing the world.
2. No, we don’t want to be a place where the political discussion dominates the atmosphere.
3. Yes we are an open platform
4. No as Woophy we don’t support one opinion
5. Yes I think Guus’ pictures about Nepal belong on our site
6. Yes we do think that showing pictures of other cultures and countries support understanding and awareness.
Hmm.. doesn’t become any clearer
Anyway I think Guus is only just begun his travel and I am sure he will surprise us with many other great posts about culture, people, politics, objects, food, festivals etc.
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Gaurav Dhwaj Khadka
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 18:31
Hi!
As we live in this world and the politics are part of our life we can not able to run away form it, but showing same thing more than 100+ times make people uninterest.
My view is that, Nepal and Kathmandu is gold mine for photographers so why not show us other interesting things of Nepal/ Kathmandu by your eyes.
As I am from Nepal, I can show my photographs with my views but I want to see photographs of my place with your (Guus) views.
That's all.
Peace,
Gaurav Dhwaj Khadka
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geert geenen
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 18:47
I'm very glad Guus is showing us his photo's of Nepal and the protest against the Chinese occupation of Tibet. I'd like to see more of this kind of photo's at Woophy. This is a part of life and the world too; there's more than only nice landscapes etcetera, and Guus is showing us that. There are many very strong newsphoto's in his collection. But i agree with Zerega that it is sometimes a problem to find them in the huge mass of pictures. A better selection by Guus would be welcome. Nevertheless, i admire and appreciate his work. It's new for Woophy. Chapeau!
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www.jgreentree.co.uk
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 19:12
I enjoyed the very first part of Guus Koelmans travel but then i lost interest very sharply , i have news 24 banging this issue down my neck everyday and its all one sided there . I am not condoning what the Chinese government have done and maybe all our governments over the world have done some dreadful things yet i dont know the full story through my eyes and im not gonna make my mind up through other peoples versions, as its their take on the matter and to be force fed over 100 pictures has put me off reading anymore of this travel.
Maybe Guus is going to go to the Chinese government and ask there side to the story (i think not). its all very well preaching disgust but people need to here both sides.
I remember not so long back a generic message being put on a set of BNP photos on here which disgusted me and i agreed it was political and would offend people , yet is posting the 100+ might offend Chinese loyalists . I used to be in the marines and we were told dont believe everything you see on tv or in papers and its true, journalists have a good way of changing a situation to their advantage not saying Guss has done this but to be political on a friendly photo site is pushing it..
Why oh why did he go political maybe he should of saved that side for when he got back and done a separate blog for it . But sorry Guss and woophy i will not be reading anymore on the blog side to this site till it lightens up .
Regards jonny
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Martin de Rijk
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 19:14
Geert, I respect your opinion, as I respect the idea behind the pictures of Gus, but since this site has members from all over the world, where, as we have seen, respect for an opinion isn't as obvious as we are tend to believe, I think Woophy has to stay low profile considering politics. Before you know it, there could be discussions that don´t belong here. This is not a mere Dutch site, with Dutch values, so we have to be a liitle cautious about what to show and what not.
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www.jgreentree.co.uk
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 19:19 - Edited by: www.jgreentree.co.uk
I feel this is a huge can of worms and should be toned down as politics causes huge rifts and people have so different opinions and am worried it will divide the site.
Right last thing i found an example , theres Bill Essex on here who posted the BNP photos .
I total disagree political side to these pictures and strongly agree with joris with his generic comments on the pictures but why is Guus's photos different?
Please can we Keep Politics from this site
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www.jgreentree.co.uk
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 19:45
Sorry had to show that picture so you can see the comment and see where im coming from.
This is not my political view.
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Ruden Fretsbo
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 20:27 - Edited by: Ruden Fretsbo
My opinion:
An image (unless it is manipulated intentionaly) is not a political artifact but a capture of a precise moment that shows us objectively what is going on in a certain place in that exact moment. It's only the interpretation of the spectator what makes it a political thing. Therefore, not only pictures from the Tibetan exile can be considered political but many, many others in woophy (see for exemple pictures from Israel and Palestina (obviously), but also pictures of poverty, hunger, industry, global warming, demonstrations, etc...).
So, in my opinion, a site that wants to show what's going on in the whole world can not leave out politics, but of course must remain absolutely impartial.
For me the work of Guus is not only good but briliant, and not only talking about images but also about all the report, which in my opinion is as neutral and objective as can be.
Just one more thing... this sumer we can expect tens or hundreds of pictures from the chinese olimpic games in Beijing. From my point of view these pictures may be also interpretated from many points of view and sensibilities... I'm thinking about the tibetan people for instance... they can easily look at those pictures with a not very optimistic political point of view (which I personaly share)... so what... will we ask not to upload pictures from the olympic games in China?
Hugs to all and, above all, respect and peace!
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Claude Kempf
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 21:06
I agree totaly with Ruden, but my english is not good enough for express my own opinion with a lot of words.... so I think Ruden can be my "porte-parole" (in french).
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TGB
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 22:43
My problem with Gus Koelman's blog was that, in the first instance, I accepted it purely as a report of an ordinary tourists reaction to a highly charged political situation in which he was innocently caught up and of which he had no control. In that situation, I too would react by championing the underdog and taking masses of photographs to expose the event.
However, the revelation that Gus is a journalist changes the situation. Firstly, one has to question what are his intentions. He had two choices in the first instance, either publish his photographs as news which is a neutral action, or politicise it to present a specific point of view, which is a personal action. Secondly, one has to query that, as a journalist, what sort of journalism does he practice, and where does he normally publish his material. If his intention is purely to educate and inform, then I have no problem with his approach, although the number of photographs he published is wildly excessive. However, if his intention is to politicise the events taking place in Tibet, and is using Woophy as a means of spreading his politics, then Woophy has to decide whether or not to allow itself to be used as a political platform. Once you go down that road, however, it is very difficult to turn back.
My personal opinion is that, while I am always ready to be educated and informed about world events, politics, like religion and my finances, are personal and should remain that way.
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trudy tuinstra
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 23:33
I read the discussion and was thinking about it whole evening. My goal os to hel making a better world in which all people can live in peace.
When I watch the picture below i keep thinking: they both can be my son, they both think they are right, I feel pitty for both, to be in such an inhumane situation. That is not politics I think. But I am just a mother hoping this will never happen to my children.
We cannot make a better world when we close our eyes for the sad things in the world. So I think it is good to look at the pictures. I think Guus also was thinking he would make a nice blog of a beautiful journey. He came in the middle of something he didn't expect. I think it is quite normal he shows us pictures of something with take rob of him. Let us try to do something positive with the pictures he shows.
I think Ruden said very wise words. And if one picture is enough for you, just don't look at the others. But don't forget: our world is not perfect, there happen things very bad. And please show lots of beautiful pictures on Woophy.
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jd casey
Member
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# Posted: 23 Apr 08 23:37
i think there is an important thing to note and that is : what is a travel log/blog? but a journal of a journey. therefore, Gus is a journalist as are many contributers to this site. wether or not he's a professional is beside the matter. he's giving an account as he sees it letting us decide whether we agree with it or not.
this is where he is for the moment, the photos before were amazing as they are now and when he moves on i'm sure it'll continue.
as Ruden says there are many photos of poverty, hunger, war memorials and other historical events etc. on this site which can be interpreted as offensive. these are allowed, should they be? i am new to this site so i'm a little confused. when i saw the blog i thought it was great. the shots were taken brilliantly and i wasn't surprised about the content since i already knew about it. and now there is a discussion whether its ethical to have them up or not which didn't even enter my head!
what's the official stance of the site?
in my opinion a good photo is one which evokes an emotion; be it appreciation of beauty, feeling of a longing for a warmer climate, challenge to ones psyche ........ and so on.
One Love
jd
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