Woophy - Weekly Photo Discussion ( Week 3. )

Forum < The Good, the Bad and the Ugly < Weekly Photo Discussion ( Week 3. )

Author	Message
Geoffrey McElwaine Member	# Posted: 28 Jul 07 23:22 - Edited by: Geoffrey McElwaine Reply Now, after my unexpected week in the limelight, it’s time to pass the baton on to another Woophy member. As I do so, may I emphasise Zazi’s point ( see http://www.woophy.com/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=4&topic=258 6 ) : some Woophy members may not relish having their pictures subjected to detailed scrutiny. I believe that this can be resolved if the member proposing to enter a picture in this Forum wrote to the picture-taker asking for his / her approval. I have done this with icarus., whom I have chosen as this week’s “ featured photographer ”. Making this selection was really difficult. Among my “ Favourites ” I have some great photographs – pictures of inspirational beauty taken by folk whose work I respect and admire. After thinking about it all week, I have, however, decided to choose this picture, by Icarus – To me, photography can, and should, be about more than taking “ pretty pictures ”. There is, of course, nothing wrong with picturing the natural world’s beauty : indeed that is one of Woophy’s key aims. As Marcel Proust said, however : "The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes". Amateur photographers have the possibility of using “ new eyes ” to see, and capture images of, people and things less sensitive folk might ignore. Icarus’ troubling image is part of that noble tradition. Some may argue that his picture is not of the highest technical quality. To me, this is not important. Its raw humanity more than compensates, compelling us to look at, and empathise with, this unfortunate subject’s marginalizing from the “ normal ” society to which most Woophy members belong. While doing so, we need to remind ourselves that, underneath the grime, etc. is a fellow human being, with exactly the same feelings, hopes and fears that we all have. Regards Geoff. P.S. As icarus is under pressure to complete a project by 31 July, he may be unable to participate as fully as he would have liked in discussion on his picture.
devish Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 00:16 Reply I will be away for the week (hopfully taking some good pictures) and wioll therefore comment now: i like your idea of choosing not a "pretty picture" but one with a really important message because those are important as well. Judging it on the message point of view it is very very nice, the wall itself with the writings and the pictures is very significant when put in contrast with the person. It makes you think about great ideal (like comunism in this case) and whewteher there are any good ideals at all. Maybe the only thing on the tecnical point of view is the contrast that could be sharpened a bit IMO. Anyhow, really great picture icarus and great choice Geoffrey
giz Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 00:38 Reply This is a great choice Geoff, I am not a technician myself so I am attracted to pictures that pull at my heart; this one does! I don't beleive that the key aim of woophy is to show the beauty of the world but to show the world as it is. And we all know that it is not only beautifull in this world. My favourite pictures aren't the over esthetic ones, allthough easy for the eye, most of the time they don't tell me anything. that's why I like this one. Well done! greetings Giz
Paulo Calafate Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 01:07 Reply Hasta la vitória, siempre! ... The last communist in Portugal? Indeed, I think the image quality, in this kind of pics, it's not so important, and besides enhance the poverty sensation. The moment and the timing are the key of the report pics. But I would like to see the same image taken off with a pro reflex camera, with good exposure time and another framing to compare ... Would have it the same impact or another?
pansa Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 07:56 - Edited by: pansa Reply It's a strong "story telling" px. Technically almost everything is wrong. Tilted verticals, some overexposure but most disturbing the feed of the man are cut off. What remains is a snapshot of reality and poverty. As such the px has a strong expressiveness. That brings me to the question why we as photographers are so attracted to and impressed by pictures of rubbish-dumps, homeless people, children with bare feet etc. Is it because we can catch that in a moment by pressing the shutter? And then we think that we can blame society? A kind of "guilt substitution? Painters hardly portrait that kind of topics and why not? Maybe Picasso's "Guernica" is the exception. Is it the "World Press Photo" effect? I don't have the clue. Can we discuss that a bit further of course in the context of this px?
W.Z. Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 10:08 Reply @pansa, I fully agree with you about the picture, but I do think the imperfection of the shot suits the everything but perfect situation the picture illustrates. There are quite a few painters and other artists that have exposed their work of misery. There actually was (if I'm not mistaken end of the 19th century) an art-movement that we now know as "naturalism". Many of those artist discribed their work as hyper-realistic, because until then only glorious events and happy happy joy joy feelings were shown to the world. This kind of art evolved to expressionism. I think the most famous artist for this kind of art is Constant Permeke, who's work is mostely tainted by misery, pain and war. I think the reason for people showing interest in misery is completely psychological. Enjoying the proof that somebody else is worse of than they are. Another reason is the breaking and avoiding of censure, "if I'm allowed to see this, I'm not being held from the truth. Kind Regards, WZ
giz Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 10:27 Reply I agree w.z. even in paintings there is often the same distress, even in Rembrandt's paintings or van Gogh's show often besides beauty also a lot of misery. And what about the work of Delacroix? A lot of blood and misery is involved, and in the work of Munch? I could go on. So imo misery in paintings is as present as in photographie. greetings giz
Zazi Member	# Posted: 29 Jul 07 17:42 Reply I like Geoffrey's choice for this weeks photo, as it has an attitude, that will bring on the comments about multiple issues. Although, I am wondering, how the topic got into an in-depth subjective observation of paintings? (Wouldn't that be better as a side bar? Just a thought.) I do understand the comparison between photography and other forms of art, though ... RE: This photo by Icarus (IMO) - I honestly would like to see the lighting and contrast adjusted, so that the viewer can view the subject/topic without wondering if this was just a "passing shot", while driving by in a car. - I also feel that the bright white slash of sunlight in the lower left corner is far too distracting. - That the plastic bag, so neatly tied, should be shown a bit more, since it may contain all of his belongings. (Although I've learned that the homeless, usually keep their belongings very close, usually under their heads.) - Those two last observations, (IMO, lead to my suggestion of capturing less of the left side, and more of the right side. - I also agree with the comment that the human subject's feet/shoes should be fully in the capture. (I don't know if it's just me, but I think that "eyes, hands, and feet" tell so very much. I hate to see only partial captures of those, you know?) * I especially like Icarus's capture of this poor man's plight, while tying it into a political statement. I think that the tilt of the capture gives that artistic view that conveys the tilted view of life that we often have. With Respect, Zazi
Icarus Member	# Posted: 30 Jul 07 00:09 Reply Fellow-Woophers, I have a lot to say to explain this pic, but first I have to thqank Geoff for putting it into the spotlight. I am fascinated & grateful for the comments, which deserve explanation. Right now, I honestly don't have time for this, but I promise to return in the next day or two. I must ask Paulo Calafate now, however, which is the last Communist in Portugal, me or the sleeping subject? It certainly isn't me, although I was at Cunhal's funeral in Alto São João in June '05, just to witness, like everything I do. And it was not a drive-by shooting, Zazi. Nor was it taken 'à la légère' . I have to much social conscience to ever shoot because it looks like "somnething that will make a good picture for the album". There is always an intention, motivated by eternal asking the question"Why?" of a lot of what/who I see in the world. All will be explained and answered, but meanwhile, thank you all again for this.
Paulo Calafate Member	# Posted: 30 Jul 07 10:57 Reply Caro Icarus, Não quis de forma alguma ofender seja quem for com o meu comentário. Como sabe os partidos comunistas têm vindo a perder influência em todo o mundo, e Portugal não foge à regra, o que é pena, porque ainda são das poucas pessoas que realmente se preocupam com os mais desfavorecidos e com o meio ambiente. E fazem-no com coragem. Além disso, sou simpatizante do Partido os Verdes. Quanto ao Álvaro Cunhal, foi sem dúvida uma personagem ímpar da nossa história pelo qual tenho uma admiração profunda. Com esta do "last communist" quis brincar um pouco com a situação, porque sou assim por natureza, mas já reparei que neste site o sentido de humor não é muito bem vindo. Já em tempos tive problemas quando tentei levar para a brincadeira um assunto que se prendia com o pessoal que se indignava quando lhe atribuiam notas baixas às suas fotografias. Mas, quando a gente expõe algo ao público, fica sujeito às mais variadas interpretações que nem nos passa pela cabeça que possam existir. O Beethoven era vaiado, O Van Gogh não vendia um quadro, etc., etc. Um abraço, e desculpe qualquer coisa.
soyoban Member	# Posted: 30 Jul 07 16:09 Reply Hi everybody. I like this picture. Perhaps, it's not a very good picture from the point of view of thechnical, but target of photography is to tell a story, and with this picture the message is well passed.(there is nothing to add). I've read comment about tilted vertical, but i think in this case it's not so important that for horizon... Greetings.
Aline Member	# Posted: 31 Jul 07 20:03 Reply Geoffrey, your choice appears to me very interesting for two reasons : - Usually, The technical quality of the pictures is my main criteria of appreciation. But for once, I don't mind about the lack of contrast and clarity. This is a street picture, maybe made in emergency, with the same quality as the quick glance any walker could get to this man sleeping. And the position of the oblique light caming from the left to the man's face is really great. I have made a copy with some adjustements, to check the result. And... I'm not sure the adjustements are good. More, I'm not sure they are really necessary. - Usually too, I'm not very at ease with pictures of poor men living in the street, poor children of foreign country, etc.. I made once one, yes, but not more (In Lisbon too) : The photograph is so, so close to the voyeurism ! The worst, IMO, are the titles describing feelings which are pure construction made by the photograph : "Old sad woman..." "Lost orphan ..." "Poor but happy" etc.. Even it often comes from a good and nice intention, it is in general pure fake. We paste emotion on people's faces and situations we don't know. Why ? the pictures are, in general, sufficiently speaking by themselve, and the title addition is often useless and fallacious. In the Icarus picture, I like the simplicity of the shot. No emphasis, no special effect, just the world as it is. The title is sober, and resume perfectly the irony of the situation : the juxtaposition of grafitis of an ideal world (for a little part of the mankind), and the street's man who maybe need mainly some resources charing. I like also the coincidence of the poster's title : "AGORA", which means in greek "public place", "forum" !. As the place the man is sleeping, as the place of this forum, where we are sharing ideas about photography.
pansa Member	# Posted: 31 Jul 07 22:12 Reply @ Aline Thanks a lot for this comment of which I learned a lot, Geoff's choice has submergec a lot of positive comments. Chapeau I("I lift my hat") for this.
filipa azul Member	# Posted: 1 Aug 07 23:59 Reply Olá to TODOS As Icarus sabe and we sabemos, o important is o enquadramento. The human enquadramento. The social enquadramento. The dark beauty enquadramento. Mas Icarus também does photo-pássaros. Go and see. Gracias Geoff Gracias Icarus
Nivad Member	# Posted: 2 Aug 07 00:39 Reply Geoff you did a fine job when you choose a picture showing us a picture of a social situation wich makes many of us feel rather uncomfortable. It gives a more philosophical twist to this weekly discussion wich I originally intended to be technical. But there is nothing wrong with your approach on the contrary ;) About the picture, on the technical matters, there isn't much I can add to what has been said by Pansa and Zazi. No matter how strong the story-telling value of the picture one can't ignore those technical flaws simply because they are quite obvious. It leaves the impression this shot was taken in a hasty way. Wich brings me by the wonderings of Paulo: But I would like to see the same image taken off with a pro reflex camera, with good exposure time and another framing to compare ... Would have it the same impact or another? I am convinced that a this picture could have a much bigger impact if it was taken more carefully and if necessary with the right post-production. Seldom we encounter pictures in our daily press with a lack some technical quality. Each year the organisation of the world press photo proves and shows that misery can be caught in technically superb shots. And those shot are often marvelly stunning. And this particular pic, showing us a scene wich can't be approved and will be at least questioned by many of us, can't be called stunning, at least not by me. So yes technical quality can and does influence the impact of a picture... Pansa Put on another interesting question: That brings me to the question why we as photographers are so attracted to and impressed by pictures of rubbish-dumps, homeless people, children with bare feet etc. Is it because we can catch that in a moment by pressing the shutter? And then we think that we can blame society? A kind of "guilt substitution? I think WZ replied nicely by saying that seeing other peoples misery can make us fel a little better. And that is true. But it is also obvious to me that almost all images showing us misery and poverty are shot in the street or some other public place. This misery is simple easy accessible. I often wonder why we don't see scenes of misery by the rich and the prosperous people. I am convinced that in those families also happen to be a lot of misery, that there pass situations wich can be questioned by the world outhere. Why isn't that ever shown to us? Simply because they have luxurie to hide it behind high walls and closed fences, that world simply isn't accessible because those people can permit themselves some privacy. So I could put a ethical question on this matter, are we actually allowed to picture these kind of scenes? Personally I can think of several reasons why we can or why we shouldn't. But as a photographer it is your responsability to wonder what you are trying to accomplish with these kind of pics. Grtz
Icarus Member	# Posted: 2 Aug 07 01:27 Reply Friends, The week is half finished and only tonight could I come back to see what is going on here. It is a very good forum, I think. I have decided to wait until Friday before I reply, for 3 reasons: 1) There is so much to say, in reply, that I honestly don't know where to begin. I'm afraid I will write too much. Is there a limit on this? 2) I would like to see if there is more input, then reply to all at once. 3) And worst of all, I am going to tell you that I am in the middle of the greatest personal crisis of my whole life. It is hard for me to have the luxury to think of anything outside of this crisis now. Over the last few years, meeting peoiple like that man - but not him - has taught me a lot. i know this is not a great piece of photography, techincally. I know its limits, that you have also seen. But I know why I took it. What I don't know is why I used this version to post on woophy. There are others, better, as Geoff has seen. I now feel it would be right to share them with you. There is another picture I posted on woophy recently, with the title "Who cares?". I could also call the title for this and others: "There But For Fortune". You see, my friends, either you know or you don't, but it is very easy for anybody in this world, but easier in countries like Portugal, to fall through the net. it depends on many complex factors. And how big the net of social protection is - and how small the holes are. But on the other side of the net from those of us who are fortunate to have a home, a job, a family, probably a car, maybe holidays, - to say nothing of computers, digi-cameras, instant internet access - there are also real human beings. And you know what? Experince has told me repeatedly that very often, those people outside the net are among the most generous, kind people there are. Those with next to nothing to give will try to give, even try to help. 99 out of 100 of the others will just walk on by, look the other way. Very briefly now (you see, I have got involved!), Paulo, me fizeste rir, obrigado! Eu estive à brincar, meu! Não fui nada ofendido, palavra. Cunhal's funeral was one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had - and I have had much experience of many things in my strange life. 4 hours outside the Central Victória in Av Lib, then the march to the cemetary. Then the funeral. It was like being in 3 different Italian films. But one personal disaster. I had left home to go to a lunch with friends. I never arrived at their office in Av. Lib. I took nearly 400 photos. As the march started, my battery ran out!! Never before or since did I miss so many once-in-a-lifetime photos.Tragic. So I wrote everything I saw instead. Aline, I appreciate your comments (as everyone's) and what you tried to do. Lewt me add that "Agora" is Portuguese for "Now". One of my other versions closes in on that word, and the man's head dominated by Che. It strikes me as both pertinent and impertinent, an obscenity, that "Now", that presence of Che, employed fatuously as usual by the Portuguese Young Communists (JCP). I mean, do they really care? What do they know about anything? The Nazis didn't invent Nazis. They only gave it a new name. It is easy to be a Nazi, today, yesterday and even easier tomorrow, I suspect. Mankind is good at it. Nivad, thank goodness you didn't use the word "stunning". Particularly if it was meant as a synonym for "Fantastic", or "Briliant", or "Awesome". I know what you mean, though. Actually, the picture is meant, in a way, to stun, in the real sense of the word. not as a pathetic attempt of mine at a work of art. Could never be. But because of its "story", it's capture of just another piece of the human story, from its dark side. I am an observer, that's what I do. Not a photographer. That camera is too limited for techinical brilliance, but I learned quickly that I could capture just about anything I saw with it, with total discretion, without patronising, or humliating. You see, I DO care. I care about everyone. I perhaps care too much and that is why I am now in sucvh deep personal trouble in my life. I always liked what Dostoevsky wrote: "Everyone is responsible for everybody and everything". And to me, indifference is a crime. So do I give a damn if this picture is tilted? Not much, because it wouldn't change the content if it had been shot at the correct angle. Anyway, the "post-production" produced other effects, as well as corrections. Should I post them? Filipa, you are uma querida! Photo-pássaros, indeed! Meanwhile, go visit Wim Denjis' collection. Talk to him about observing people. Now, he IS a great photographer and human being. See you again on Friday, though maybe I won't need to say so much then, after all.
Geoffrey McElwaine Member	# Posted: 3 Aug 07 22:57 - Edited by: Geoffrey McElwaine Reply Folks. As I'm heading off on holiday tomorrow, this is my last chance to participate in this topic. Thank you to all who have contributed, and for the generally positive nature of those comments. I am disappointed that a minority focussed on Icarus picture's technical merits / demerits. As I said, in my introduction ( and as Aline and others grasped ), that was to miss the point of this particular picture. Its image is only a door through which we can enter another world. If this door happens to be a little rusty, or in need of paint, so what ? These things should not be allowed to distract attention from what is really significant : the plight being endured by a fellow human being. Please don't find this too controversial. " Pretty pictures " rarely excite the imagination, or stay in the mind. To me, Icarus' picture does both. Regards Geoff.
filipa azul Member	# Posted: 3 Aug 07 23:14 Reply I agree with you Geoff, about the "pretty pictures" and Icarus. Have a good holiday!

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