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Aline
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 09:54
Reply
For a long time, we all complained about downrating. But since Woophy 2.0, the phenomenon is less visible. Thank you, Joris and Marcel.
An issue disapears, another is underlined : Uprating is as irritating as its opposite, and not a new issue. But I see more and more complains about that. Just remind the last clashs, with Lonesome Runner for instance.
I have a project for a Little Charter for all the Woophy members, and specially the more active :
The signatories would commit :
- to respect fully the rating scale :
No rate : Ignored
1 : Medium
2 : Deserves interest
3 : Good
4 : Very Good
5 : Excellent
In my experience, there is not more than 1 or 2 pictures "excellent" per day, and around a dizain of "very good"
- to moderate their words in their comments
- to try, as often as possible, to write constructive critics, which can include advises and opinions
- to be honest and impartial
In order to obtain a real an immediate change in Woophy, without imbalance, this engagement would be effective the day at least 35 members will sign , and not before.
If you think it is not an utopia, I will create a picture Little Charter in a forum, where everybody could sign.
An exemple of a 5 picture, in my opinion :
What's your feeling ?
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Geoffrey McElwaine
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 11:04 - Edited by: Geoffrey McElwaine
Reply
Aline Hi. You have raised an interesting and worthwhile topic ! I'm sure that no serious and honest Woophy member [ and this, surly, applies to the vast majority ! ] would have any difficulty in signing your " Little Charter " : I will certainly sign it ! On the other hand, will it achieve what you desire - a more objective assessment of members' pictures ? Frankly, I doubt that : rating pictures is subjective - the picture you think worthy of a 4 or 5, I may choose to ignore ! The " illustration " you have selected makes this point clearly. I liked the picture's bleak simplicity, and strong composition. I, therefore rated it as 5, and commented : " Beautiful ! Strong, simple composition. " I suspect that you may not have thought it " deserved " this score ! ( To my mind, there is a very fine line between 4 and 5 : I tend to veer towards the more " generous " rating. We all need encouragement, and this is my small attempt to be an encourager. )
Regards
Geoff. ( Geoffrey McElwaine )
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pansa
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 12:26
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Hi Aline
I will certainly sign your chapter although I tend to agree with Geoffrey. Personally I only view (and comment) pxs that attract my attention, so that they already as thumbnail appeal to my "taste". That means that they are already at the higher part of the scale IMO. Of course there can be a disappointment when viewed large. But in general I hardly rate below 3 because of this selfprotection mechanism in viewing through the daily catch.
Your illustration is without doubt an excellent px. Purity, strong compo, interesting topic.
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giz
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 12:45
Reply
I would sign your charter Aline,without hesitation!
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-flyer-
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 15:47
Reply
Brilliant idea, Aline!
I don't expect the charter will immediately bring a change in the way of rating, but it will present a standard of how to comment and rate. I hope a charter will improve this, because we can learn a lot from each other, by constructive comments and not only rating 5's.
I surely would sign your charter!
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fotogravenswaay
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 17:02
Reply
Sounds interesting Aline, and I think I will sign to.
Since sometime I don't vote any more, or it has to be IMO a good well damn*** PHOTO, which rarely happens pity enough, or when I just like a picture I put it in my favourites ( FAV ), and that has nothing to do with the quality, composition, use of colours of the picture, or whatever, I just have to like it.....
And like pansa says ; so that they already as thumbnail appeal to my "taste"......and sometimes you overlook good photo's, like the one you showed from Matz..........but it is impossible to see the whole upload of everyday.
kind regards ruud
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Vidar S
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 17:25
Reply
I'm in!
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drora
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 18:54
Reply
I'm in too............................hope it will help me learn more 
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Ruden Fretsbo
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 20:35 - Edited by: Ruden Fretsbo
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Hi all!
I'm in too! I think it's a good idea. I would add an important thing to this charter:
- not to write the rating after the comment. Rate and commenting should be done separately (unless it is completely necessary).
I think this is a very bad habit that we have here in woophy (me included). If we write all the time the rate after the comment I think is more difficult to be really honest, as we don't want to look unkind... So we (me included again) usually overrate some pictures. I'm already trying to quit this bad habit...
Another suggestion, for the woophy staff, would be to rate separately some different aspects of a picture: for instance, a rating for quality of the pic, another rating for the subject, another for originality... and so on.... maybe not more than 3 or 4 aspects... I mean that there are for instance very high quality pictures that after all are not so interesting, and on the other hand a lot of very interesting pictures with not so good quality... Just an idea!
Hugs!
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joopvandijk
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 20:50 - Edited by: joopvandijk
Reply
I'm a member with 50 pictures rated 5 stars. I consider myself as being not a great photographer.
I'm one of these guys who likes to take pictures and participate at woophy and I am very glad if somebody likes one of my pictures.
Some of my 5 stars rated pictures are imo surely not worthy 5 stars:
  
These are uprated pictures. These pictures didn't become many votes, only 7 or 8
I think a picture should have been voted 25 times or more to get an 5 star rating.
I agree with Aline that we have to vote the way she suggests.
I agree also with Geoffrey: I do rate only 4's and 5's, the other pictures wich do not attract me, I don't vote them (till now)
Ruden: good idea!
I will sign the chart.
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trudy tuinstra
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 21:34
Reply
I will sign the charter
( i have surch the word in the wordbook and found out it is a kind of gentlemans agreement, have I understood it right?)
and I think Ruden is right about the rule he adviced.
I also think Rudens idea of rating at different aspects is a good one. If there are five stars we can think of five aspects.
But I like the comments more then the rating!
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SJS
Member
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# Posted: 18 Jul 08 23:11
Reply
I guess any attempt to improve the ratings sytem is worth a try, because it is surely in need of attention.
It seems that we go on dishing out 5s like they were confetti because we don't want to offend anybody, but how can that be a criterion? It is hardly a clear, independent judgement, is it?
Also, is this to be only signatories to the Charter in the forum? What about the majority of the 26,000 other members who never make their presence felt in the forums?
A clear system is necessary for the whole community to adhere to & abide by, but Lord knows how.
When someone goes their own way, like nivad, look at the controversy that erupts, as it did at th beginning of this week. And all because he has the guts to try to apply the present rating system according to his own criteria, which means giving 5 only when he feels the photo really deserves it. He got attacked because of his own photos, but he never said he was Cartier-Bresson, did he?
@Ruden, over 2 months ago, I decided I couldn't stand the ratings system anymore and stopped giving ratings for a little while. Then I started rating again, but for all of these 2 months, I have never indicated after a comment any score. Nobody seems to take offence. And I feel happier that way. But I have realised something else. I have lost all interest in looking at ratings on my photos. I am only interested in the comments, above all those that say more than 2 or 2 syllables.
So, Ruden & others, I can recommend it. It really isn't hard. No more ratings after your comments!
If people give 5s to my pics, I only rarely believe they deserve it on any technical merit. But if they make the observer react, think, or feel something and they try to tell me, then I am satisfied.
Maybe there is the problem - a lot of the time we don't really know why people give all those 5s, and never 2, 3 or 4.
Bonne chance, Aline. I am not optimistic about the Charter, but I do agree it is worth a try.
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A.Miguel Oliveira
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 01:21
Reply
I thought for a while before coming to this interesting/important thread opened by our great woophy member, Aline! First, because I'm not supposed (nor you, who already replied her, I guess), to belong to any "club" (mine, only, is F.C.Porto  )! Second, because I'm afraid I cannot express everything I think of it in a quite understandable english! Well, let me try!
In theory, I completely agree with Aline!
Yes, side by side with the downrating problem, there's a uprating phenomenon! The first one, which upseted me for some months at the begining of my membership, mainly when it was taken anonymously, is almost (not totally, of course) overcome. Now, let's deal with the latter.
As I said, I agree, in theory, with the proposition Aline has made. I agree a great number of pics are uprated, also by myself (also in my pics). It would be nice if all of us could turn it more serious. Right!
But I wonder:
1. Is it practical to assume a new way of rating? Is it possible to carry on a project for a Little Charter for all the Woophy members, and specially the more active, as Aline proposed (I repeat, so desireable in theory)? Only a restrict number of members come to the Forum and read it, because many can't understand english well enough, or just because many don't even know what the Forum is, or even don't have time or interest in it! This would mean that some dozens (a few, I guess) would apply the "new rules" of rating, but the majority would go on doing as they do so far. Inequality of positions towards this phenomenon would increse the problem instead of putting things more fair!
2. Even admitting that this could be adopted, I think that it would have to be the Staff to make a big alert for how to rate at Woophy, with a change of stars display, then in vertical, following Aline's schema:
1 : Medium
2 : Deserves interest
3 : Good
4 : Very Good
5 : Excellent
Without this, no chance for sucess in the process, imho!
3. Ruden proposal would be important, too, and I also support it, but only in the condition of being general (an express rule for everyone)! Other way, I guess I'd feel unfriendly towards those who express their rating at my own pics (for those, at least)! And, sorry to say to some of you who may think differently, I'm here for friendship first! Anyway, as I said, it would be an ideal to reach!
4. Don't think that, even adopting this "new charter" (and I repeat, not to be misunderstood, that ideally I agree with it) problems will stop. As some said before, what is excellent for some is only good for others. Themes, techniques and interests are so differents that, at this level (rating), the use of rating will go on being different! More, some will interpret this chart by pro levels, others will go on interpreting it by amateur levels (this, the right way, imho. Isn't Woophy an amateur site, even with a medium level not above many of the others around?).
This leads me to think that:
5. Let us try to improve the most important, besides sharing pics [the real aim of Woophy, as I understand it]: our comments!!! If I recognize that I myself uprate many times (but always thinking at an amateur level), I'm happy that most of the times I do try to make a comment as clear and complete as I can, as time allows me! I prefer (and I'm convinced that the receiver also does) to make a true critical comment, for good or for suggesting something is not so well, and say..."still, 5" (for an amateur level, I repeat, and many times for beginners who have a cheap camera and tries his/her best, it's an important incitement), than write "not like it...3" or "very nice...5"! And all those who can't express in english can't do much more, of course.
And as many are saying lately, let's have fun (with "rules", of course, no cheating, and friendly) and enjoy sharing our pics, first! If Aline's proposal is practical and general, let's then also adopt it. In that case, I'm for it!
A great weekend of pics for everyone!
Greets,
Miguel
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Paulo Calafate
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 01:37
Reply
Suggestion for a nice rate system:
0 - "miserable"
1 - "it's better to dedicate your time fishing"
2 - "3 years more and perhaps you can take a good shot"
3 - "please, buy another camera"
4 - "I bet that your child can do better than you"
5 - "I don't know better photographer than you"
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-flyer-
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 01:42
Reply
Thanks Paulo!, I do appreciate your sense of humour!     
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Nivad
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 15:25
Reply
Not only do I support your initiative Aline, I already life by it greatly, as I already explained I think.
Nonetheless I don't know if I would sign such a charter;
First of I do not need such a contract to keep or protect my integrity, I life with my own commitments wich I think are fair and honest.
But more important I cannot agree with the rating scale as you present it.
On a scale from 1 to 5 the 1 value can't possibly present a medium or mediocre rating. The 1 is the lowest rating possible and it will be seen as such.
If we all would follow that scale representation, and the 1 and 2 values are used as you present it I expect complaints about downrating to be raising again.
But as I have said I do support the initiative, it has potential...
Grtz
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Phoenix Rising
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 19:08 - Edited by: Phoenix Rising
Reply
Really good idea but and big but im not a big fan of 1 to 5 ratings .
I use a site call ephotozine that doesn't use a rating system instead you can leave a comment and leave a vote or click as people call it then you dont get hard feeling.
I really find the rating the biggest ear ache in woophy and feel no matter what people do about trying to make the 1 to 5 system better you just cant. One click and a comment is much more palatable.
This isnt the only site that uses stars and 1 to 5 and in all their forums there are the same discussions about this yet go in the forum of sites like ephotozine its more photography and not disillusion.
My advice is joris scrap the ratings as its just flooded this forum with pointless threads and even if you put a bright out look on the site rating still brings you back to a bitter taste in your mouth.
People have different tastes and the picture you used as a 5 id say a 4 for photography and 4 for processing if i was going to use your system. and i think this site is full of people who like to take pictures and do you really think its fair to try have a rating system. Just me but i think 1 to 5 is very disheartening to people who just like to take photos. And if people wanted to professionally rate a picture then go on a site that caters for you professional photographers.
Good idea Aline but how long would this last really???
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Coffeejunkie
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 21:32
Reply
there are many good points i see.
aline made a start witch i apricciate and i must agree with nivad about the 1 and 5.
ruden has a good idea with the technical, compo etc rating. but let me add here: i'm also memebr of a other side witch has this rating system... do you wanna know what they rate? always a 10 in each category! uprating is there as much present as here. well, the idea is good i like it. but it is not really a solution either.
there is no solution to this matter witch fits for everyone.  if we rate the way aline suposes, then some people will compain about the downrating, if we keep the habit this way, it is uprating...
i would like to have a possibility in my member account 'do not take part on the rating system' so only the commetn are possible. i would like this more for me personally. i like when someone leaves a comment, a short, a long one doesnt matter.
i stopped to give rating btw some while ago. maybe now and then i rate one. rarely. i prefer to but the pictures i like into my favorites..
this is only my opinion...
still i like the initiative from all of you
greetz
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Oscar_
Moderator
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 22:50
Reply
Great initiative Aline, like the idea very much. But when I read all the comments that are made in this forum then I can find myself in any answer that is made here.
I think it would be great if everybody will make these ratings. Most of my pictures are only five rated pictures but I know it could be better. But if you read the rates then I should think it couldn’t be better. I’m not a pro.
But for every member the rates are different. A photographer as you Aline, a portfolio of pictures that are all beautiful in my opinion. There are a lot of members who didn’t have the equipment as you have and also not the skills. Those members will rate all pictures of your portfolio as a five. I can imagine people will do this.
As I was a beginner, I saw a lot more 5 star pictures on Woophy as I now do.
So I think because of the different in thoughts about what a 5 star picture is this cannot work.
I don’t say that you can’t make a good picture without a good camera but you know.
Also, I know a similar rating system on another site. All the problems on Woophy are also on this site. Now they changed the complete system and now people are still not happy. But with this site you can turn the rating system off in your profile.
And I think also that no rating system will work, up rating as down rating will always be a problem. A button in the profile of the members for turning the rating system on and off will be a great feature.
About the comments on the pictures. I think it would be great to receive some constructive comments but language is also a problem of most members.
For myself I made the comments as long as possible but I mostly rate only the better pictures that are posted. I don’t have the time to rate and comment all the pictures. I would like to give more constructive comments so members could improve but I don’t see how this is possible with a upload amounts of sometimes 600 or more a day.
Also I think with a upload limit members have more time to watch to each other pictures. And this can result in better comments and better rates. Now most of the time the pictures are drown in the database.
Gteets,
Oscar
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Raulcanc
Member
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# Posted: 19 Jul 08 23:26
Reply
Hello, Aline. Your idea seems to me to be attractive and in addition practicable. Why not to use it?
The worst mistake to committing, is not to face in any way the problems. I remember that an out-standing Argentinian said: " The things it is necessary to do them. Maybe badly, but to do them ".
On the other hand: what we risk, putting your method into practice?.
If Woophy is a democratic place, let's do good use of our freedom of testing ideas. I rest your.
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